It seems like this arranger/home/pro instrument discussion has become a hot topic for many on this forum. I will be the first to admit that talent and ability and proficiency are the most important aspects of being a musician. As Cassp has shown by posting the link to the video of the Casio player, the instrument matters very little.

To all who think that arrangers are home instruments and not professional, perhaps they should remember that pianos are home instruments. Here is a quote from Wikipedia about the Hammond organ, "Hammond intended his invention to be a substitute for pipe organs, a replacement for the piano in middle-class homes, and for use by radio stations."

There you have it, pianos and Hammond organs are home instruments. Go ahead and tell Steve Winwood and Ferrante and Teicher that they are playing "home instruments".

One of the best jazz guitar players in Detroit used to play on a plastic guitar that he purchased from Montgomery Wards, and many played on amps purchased at Sears. I guess that makes them non professional players because Sears marketed their instruments to the "home" user

The last job I played was a trio job, drums, keys and trumpet. I used my G70 and my PK-5 pedals and never once turned on the arranger. I will play solo this Sunday at my mom's nursing home and use the arranger 100% of the time. My "home" keyboard is very versatile and that is the key for most of us.

It's not the tool you use but how you use it.

Tom

I agree wholeheartedly, Tom...there are quite a few on this forum making a living playing "home keyboards".

A talented person playing a home arranger or a talented person playing a concert grand piano is still a talented person.

I've also seen formidably mediocre players hold their audience spellbound, and technically proficient musicians turn an audience off completely...so it's not always musical technique that is working, but just how effective the player is at connecting to the listener.

Ian

Hi Guys - You're so right! I have worked a lot of conventions and from my perspective, what they want is entertainment and atmosphere. I have worked by myself as well as w/balloon twisters and fortune tellers within 100 feet of me. One of the conventions I am doing will have two massage tables and a caricature artist going. Many groups could opt for a DJ, but my experience has been that a live musician tends to enhance the atmosphere.

In the past, many of the folks I worked with in duos and trios either used mini-disks which they created from midi files (reliant on the quality of the sound card used when the mini-disks were recorded), or played midi files directly from a laptop, often with a 'less than optimum' sound card. With the arrangers, we have access to considerably better sounds as well as the ability to make the songs our own and to have complete control over where the song is going to go.

Arrangers have given me an advantage. They make me more marketable and a more versatile musician.

Randy


[This message has been edited by saxxman (edited 04-18-2008).]

Right on Tom!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Kudos for arrangers I just finished up 8 jobs in 2 days and landed a monthly $$ booking doing all live arranger playing and singing. The PA800 is nothing short of a PRO keyboard.

Playing current Arrangers gives me much more versatallity then playing synths. With an arranger i have so much more freedom, i can reapeat a chorus as many times as i want. I can do things that a true synthplayer can only do with a full backup band....how about some nice improvisation....

I play in a Duo myselves, with a drummer that follows my Midi drums and whose main purpose is singing and filling up the stage... (most arranger players in Holland play in duo's)

Arrangers, espescially the top of the line products are the most versatile instruments on earth...and i still don't get why Deejay's don't use them on the stage yet....

It's a good general point, but don't forget that many modern sequencers, and especially those in arrangers, have Markers you can drop into SMFs, to allow you to restructure them, on the fly.

Want an extra chorus... no problem. Want a totally different vamp from the tune? no problem... just program the vamp well after the end of the song. Jump to it. Jump back when you want. It is NOT like it used to be....

Oh, and don't get me started about the fact that an arranger FORCES you to use your LH to pay the chords ALL THE TIME.

Kiss using that LH for anything goodbye!

Both systems have their strengths, but don't for one minute think that it is entirely a one way street. You have to give up SOMETHING, no matter which system you use...

Hi Tom
Your definition of home is certainly unique, While there are a few pipe organs in private homes (As I understand the definition of home) 99.9% are in Concert Halls, Theatres, Churches, Colleges etc, and I don’t think these would classed as homes.
Or am I missing something

Bill

Another endless road to nowhere. Seems to me there are two camps; one that feels very defensive about having their expensive toy classified as a 'home' instrument, and another that doesn't really give a cr-p how someone else classifies it. Put me down for the latter.

chas

Yeah, you're right Chas...there will always be that division.

Personally I don't give a vole's colon how an instrument is classed...as long as it works for my stuff.

I just happen to like instruments that don't weigh a lot, but still sound very good.

As the Nord C1 has proved to you, weight does not reflect quality or performance.

I feel the same way about my S900.

Ian

Just My Take !!

Hammond organ, a home instrument ? Maybe , but , there are a hell of a lot of old ( and new ) B3`s being played live.

As for arrangers , you have to not only be able to play , you have to know what and when to push to right buttons.
Breaks , fill-in`s instrument changes , etc.

Arrangers are in many ways MORE pro than a "straight" instrument.

The only time you get a break is at the end of a song !!

Like I said , just my thoughts.

Later ,
Gary 

So I lay play left hand chords all the time whats the big deal? is there left hand chord police watching me play? Who cares as long as it sounds good & I'm having fun? As far as Im concerned if you make money with the instrument, its "PRO" period!

This, of course, from the one who is CONSTANTLY reminding us that we ARE playing 'home keyboards'...

If you don't give a vole's colon (or a shrew's sphincter, a raccoon's rectum?!) either way, what POSSIBLE reason would you have for saying that?

Sand in the Vaseline, maybe??

John, still not quite sure why the chip on the shoulder? No-one is saying anything bad about arrangers. Like I said, use them and love them myself. Do nearly 100% of everything I do on one...

Just trying to point out that there are as many things you CAN'T do on an arranger as you can't do with any other type of keyboard.

Just curious, John, but have you ever played keyboards in a band? Can you play the piano? Ever used your LH in a non-arranger role? If not, well, firstly, there's a LOT more than simple LH chords you can use that sucker for. You might cut a little slack for those who DID learn other techniques. And, if you did, then surely you DO understand what the tyranny of the LH input system does to your playing...?

No-one is putting it down (use it myself!), just pointing out there ARE compromises.

I've always felt, in a way, that playing the arranger is a bit like being a conductor. The only problem is that, although they SOUND like a great ensemble, they are dumb as two planks! Turn away from conducting to play your own instrument for ONE SECOND, and they completely lose their way!

If I don't keep reminding you, you're gonna let this stuff go to your head....of course, IF it does...there must have been room for it.

Wock on!


Ian

PS...bet ya had to look up "vole".


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-19-2008).]

Ian....No Chips here, I understand what you saying & do play LH bass when needed besides mostly triad chords + more.
But it just seems we're always defending our playing & our purchases & what's right & wrong. When I would rather just discuss playing techniques, tips & tricks, etc wouldn't you?.. & also how we can help each other play better no matter what level people think they're at or what type music they enjoy performing..

BTW, yes I have played a few instruments with bands years ago organ & sax being some of them.

John, you have Diki and I mixed up...can't understand how, since I'm more intelligent and far more modest.

I did have a coffee instead of tea today, so maybe that caused the confusion.

Actually, I'm on your side...I play arranger using LH chords and stuff.

Diki is far more rambunctious...hardly ever plays normal chords... mostly argumented, demented and demolished...and these are played with several fingers and an appendage or two to add depth.

Shhhhhh...don't mention that I told you this...Diki's very modest.

Ian

That's a new take, Ian.
Is that the polite version of the FUBAR method????


John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 04-19-2008).]

As we say in the South AMEN! I personally am sick of seeing arrangers put down. This is an arranger forum for goodness sake. I wish those who look down on arrangers and arranger players would go somewhere else.
DonM

Don't get us confused, John... He's the smart one, I'm the good looking one!

John, to be honest, that's exactly the point I am trying to make... Techniques, tips and tricks, trying to help us play better!

Rediscovering what your LH can do, if you already knew, is one of the things I bring up a LOT... There ARE workarounds that can let you play primarily in arranger mode, but for styles and songs that WOULD benefit from these two handed techniques, still allow you to use them. Rather than just give up and say 'I GOT to play the chords, no matter WHAT'.

You're a Yamaha user, aren't you? You have the benefit of synced style and SMF sections. Use the arranger for most of the song, and for the section you want to do the two hand thing, prepare up a sequence, start it while you are playing, it takes over seamlessly, do your thing, and go back to the arranger mode when you are done.

Of course, you HAVE to prepare up the sequence in advance... THAT'S the benefit of the Chord Sequencer or the looper. You do it on the fly, every night a bit different if you choose, without any preparation. Best of BOTH worlds!

You play sax, huh? Wouldn't it be nice to blow a solo whenever you felt like it, rather than just over sequences? Looper or CS would allow you to do this...

The whole point is I am trying to encourage some here to try to reinvestigate their band roots, and some of the techniques that are VERY effective, but close to impossible to pull off in regular arranger play. But rather than do what so many HAVE to, I am investigating equipment and software that allows us to COMBINE these things, not REPLACE the very things we all love! I am not advocating you STOP using LH chords, RH solos. I am merely suggesting you ADD to it...

Sounds like a 'playing technique tip and trick' to ME, anyway...

AMEN to that AMEN.

I consider the top of the line arranger keyboards to be "Pro" keyboards..not because they they do all the work for us...but they give us choices ...the way we want to use them...

To me ..the arranger is the finest keyboard available..I do not want another work station keyboard [the name implies all we need to know...you have to work at getting a finish product..let alone pulling off something "live"]..For me, and especially my board of choice, allows me every possible method to choose..be it for performing, writing, or just having fun...

These "pro" keyboards can be played as stand a lone instruments..and work in any band situation [without lacking quality sound]..and are great as left hand bass, drums and piano for our trio "Jazz " feel...
Instruments as the unit I play, also gives me a great drawbar organ [with draw bars]..

These "Pro" arrangers give us all the benefits..MP3/wav playback and record[Korg and Yamaha]..SMF playback and record with "super " editing {Roland}
Mic inputs/ and harmonizers that have no equal [Roland, Korg}..

How can any one with hands on experience not agree with us...They are great "pro" keyboards..that allow us to produce at any level..

Don , you have my AMEN too!!!

Don I concure with you & Fran & others here.
Arrangers are here to stay, home or pro its all good.

Yep, I agree...especially regarding the "work" part...I hate work...that's why I "play" for a living.

Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?

Ian

Your most creative work to date - LMAO

I think this has much more to do with how some people are perceived than whether some keyboard is 'pro' or not. For instance, some of us choose not to use arrangers in live performance. I'm one of those. I don't think a jazz club is the right venue for an arranger keyboard and at the moment, that's the only venue I play. That doesn't mean that I look down on arrangers or arranger players. It's just a question of the right tool for the venue. I also wouldn't take an organ trio into a C & W venue. I've invested over 6 grand in arranger keyboards over the last couple of years, and play one of them almost daily. I use voices from both in recording although I have at least several TOTL workstations (I like some of the arranger voices better). I also use one (PA1x) as the handiest of handy drum machines (traded my DR880 to Dan01 2 yrs. ago) for putting together a rough track. It's easier than the average drum machine. Working with singer/songwriters, I can flesh out a new/original tune in less than an hour. The arranger is a great tool, no doubt about it.

When I see some or most rational, reasonable, diplomatic, members, who themselves are seasoned pros, starting to get defensive and viewing alternative points-of-view about arranger usage, as being anti-arranger, then I know it's about time to stop having this discussion. Like I said before, who cares how someone else classifies your instrument of choice. JMO.

chas

When I bought my casio MT-30 mini-keyboard 30 yrs ago, I never considered it a toy. It cost me a whopping $100. To this day I still don't consider it a toy. I have used it on gigs with my trio and played accompaniment with it for my choir and done some comping with it at parties. It doesn't have any rhythms or styles, just a few different sounds, sustain and vibrato. Nobody who ever heard me play it called it a toy.
Mt-30

Today I play an E-60 that costs more than $ 1500 and does just about everything but wipe my ***, yet I have to defend myself against buying a toy?? Who cares. As long as it does the job I need it to do, it becomes a PRO piece as soon as I use it as such and say it is.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 04-19-2008).]

What's there to defend?

I believe there are those who have played many years struggling with Hanon and developing playing skills that are or seem to be equaled by those who can now earn a living with limited training and arranger keyboards.

I understand the frustration. But also appreciate more the idea that those who did not have years of study and just a pair of ears can enjoy making music just the same that is appreciated by the general public.

People don;t realize that accomplished songwriters write the song....the melody and words. They HIRE producers,Great players and Arrangers to turn their song into ear candy.

With these arrangers we have those producers,players and Arrangers at our finger tips. That canot ever be a bad thing.

Its the same as the whole Home recording studio argument. Many engineers in major studios won't give home studios respect even though they all record in a digital format that can and does rival any pro studio's output to the common man. Their lively hoods are and have been at risk.

We can now produce movies with professional results, music, and many other creative endeavors reserved for the few not so very long ago with limited equipment and training thanks to technology.

That's not a bad thing.

------ Quote Wikipedia:

Equipment
"Professional-grade" equipment is built to higher standards than "consumer grade" equipment. Copyright laws that require copy protection in consumer equipment sometimes contain exemptions for professional grade audio (audio tape, CD) and video (VHS, DVD players) equipment ( see Digital Millennium Copyright Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act ).
This equipment is usually more expensive and sometimes unavailable to the general public. The term may however also be used as a simple marketing ploy, as it is normally not protected or legally defined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional

About Work

Definition
A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.

Professionals are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to guilds in these regards.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.

The above definitions were echoed by economist and sociologist Max Weber, who noted that professions are defined by the power to exclude and control admission to the profession, as well as by the development of a particular vocabulary specific to the occupation, and at least somewhat incomprehensible to outsiders.[citation needed]

Therefore it would be appropriate to state that a 'true' professional must be proficient in all criteria for the field of work they are practising professionally in. Criteria include following:

1. The highest academic qualifications - i.e., university college/institute
2. Expert and specialised knowledge in field which one is practising Professionally
3. Excellent manual/practical & literary skills in relation to profession
4. High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy,
primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavours
5. A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities while carrying out one's
profession (as an employee, self-employed person, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.)

----- End Quote.

Well,
I'm happy that I'm a pro amateur having a lot of fun playing (read: pressing buttons and keys)
on a modern "toy" called arranger keyboard, karaokemachine, midifileplayer or whatever!
Sometimes it even happens that somebody manage to guess what tune or song I'm trying to perform.

Happy Playing
GJ

Yep... There are some bloody awful drivers on the road out there, today. But you don't get defensive about your car

Somebody rails about bad arranger players and their use of these instruments. Why get defensive about it..? It's not YOU they are talking about, is it?

But just because YOU are a good driver doesn't mean there aren't bad ones out there...

Trust me, the arranger hasn't got it's bad rep from most of the players HERE... But the rep IS earned.

The first time I played an arranger I thought I had died and gone to heaven. It's an awesome instrument. And I own a 6' Yamaha grand piano and I've had B 3's. But my arranger is a whole orchestra. And I don't know about your budgets, but mine won't pay for me hauling around 20 or 30 musicians wherever I play. The arranger does that job for me. If I heard that starting tomorrow they would no longer make arrangers, I'd buy a couple of spares to last me through retirement. Long live arrangers!

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

Boy oh Boy, this is like the Democratic Primary. You'd surely better watch every word you say. For instance; I made the mistake of using the words 'expensive toy'. I meant it in the same sense as when referring to a Porsche Carrera, TOTL Zero Turn Mower, 50 bottle Wine Cooler, Ducati Motorcycle, Trophy Wife, 70" Plasma TV (in the media room, of course), iPhone, Arranger Keyb.....whoops. But of course that was enough to launch the loyal opposition into attack mode. Ease up, guys. It wasn't meant as an attack on your...scratch that, OUR precious and irreplaceable musical tools-of-the-trade. Seems no matter how one tries to explain oneself, there is always someone around to parse out one word or phrase, no matter how innocent or obvious the true intent, to rally the troops in a holy war against the infidels. By golly, I think it's high time that we sent out missionaries to spread the word about arrangers and convert the thousands, nay, millions, of heathens who have not yet been touched by IT'S grace. And why the hell not? After all, it IS an Arranger forum, right?

chas

BTW, I just gotta stop spending so much money on things I hate.

I read somewhere:

A Bus station....is where the bus stops.
A Train station..is where the train stops..
so, WHY would I want a WORK station in my arsenal?

Work?

That's why I became a musician...so I wouldn't have to work.

Ian the Indolent

Good point, UD. I, myself, seem to have an adverse reaction to work. Might be the one thing all musicians have in common.

chas

Kingfrog, you hit the nail on the head. I picked up the sax when I was 22 yesrs old about 48 years ago. I never expected to play infront of anyone or make any money, I just wanted to play the sax. I started honking against the basement wall, self taught. I can read a little but not enought to hurt my playing any. I have played in just about every sh.. house in Baltimore at one time or other. I've worked in groups with some of Baltimore s best. I've worked full time, part time I allways worked whenever I wanted to. Of course I have been critisized by some Peabody graduates sitting in the audience, but I'm makeing money and they are out there listening.

I started fooling around with the keyboard when the first Dx7 came out. I developed some farely good left hand bass paterns. but never played out. It was'nt untill I purchased a psr 8000 that I toyed with the idea of solo work. The horn was getting a little heavy around my neck. I broke into the NH business about 4 years ago I have about 15 monthly cliants and I have two water front venues that I work one day a week each in the summer. I could not do what I'm doing with out the arranger keyboard. I am now the proud oner of Two T2s. I have a less than average voice and my playing skills are limited but I,ve been fortunate enought to keep working.

Some of the keybordist that I've played horn with over the years who have paid there dues are a little contemptious about what I've been able to acomplish. I love music and I love to entertain. I think it takes God given talant to be sucsessful. And of course an arranger keyboard.

My two cents,

Jim

Geeze I with this forum had spell check!!

The forum doesn't need it. If you're using Windows, you have it. Check for a symbol that says ABC with a check mark. If you don't see it, you may have to initialize it.

chas

PS: Don't know anything about Mac's. They're like the Arranger keyboards of the computer world .

When does the slamming of Arrangers KB's ever end? I dont get it? I love my arranger KB & always will. Isn't that why we're all here on this forum?

My late Uncle Jim used to say, "When someone keeps trying to kick you in the ass, you must be ahead of them".


Ian

Hey - it give us something to read over the weekend.

Cass.....all this negativity toward Arrangers doesnt help anyone. Its really not needed. I wish the energy was put to help people who use arrangers so they may become more productive in their ability.
We should be helping each other NOT bashing or demeaning the very thing we love mainly Arranger KB's. I want to get to be a better player & learn from people better then me who have traveled the same road. Is that asking too much?

You know, 100% of all the arranger slamming I have ever heard comes from this forum... Mostly from those with a chip on their shoulder. If you CAN play and sound good, why care..? But maybe there are a few that know that they could do better, and get defensive when faced with criticism they ASSUME is about them (no smoke without fire, eh? ). I'm pretty sure any negative comments about an arranger have nothing to do with ME, so I could care less. Why are YOU so upset?

Only a few idiots blame the gun for the crime... Most sensible people blame the SHOOTER

Time to give it a rest, gentlemen...

Why Diki? This is great entertainment. I haven't laughed so hard since my old mother-in-law fell down the basement stairs.

This place is pure joy.

Ian

You know, you shouldn't let her move that G70 all by herself

You SURE she wasn't pushed?

No...but she was driven.

See what I mean, John.

I want to agree with this statement.

Visit either Korg forums or the Roland arranger forum and you find tips, help, suggestions bug spotting (NOT 'board/player bashing or very rarely), and an altogether more harmonious and co-operative atmosphere.

More in keeping with what I think these forums are about.

Nigel has provided two seperate areas that this kind of thing belongs in, in my view.

General and The Bar.

I usually never visit these, because I reckon there would be mostly the drivel that occupies thread space on this forum which I prefer to avoid, only to find it keeps appearing here.

The general arranger forum should be about posting ideas, suggestions and answering calls for help with constructive replies, not trying to deride the poster, deliver zippy one-liners or make disparaging remarks about the choice of keyboard or its method of use.

The clash of egos, "one-upmanship" brinkmanship, trying to outsmart everyone else, I have really only seen happen on a frequent basis, on this forum.

I do keep looking in, in the hope that someone has posted a constructive or informative thread, but come away without finding one.

Perhaps the last comment in the above quoted post "time to give it a rest" is the most sagacious of all.

Dennis

So John, being somewhat of a car buff and all, tell me; How does the Popemobile handle. Man, in the short time you've been on the forum, I think you've posted more indignant rage at the alleged arranger-bashers than I've seen in the entire time I've been on the forum. Maybe it's time to give it a rest. I think it's safe to say that by now we all understand your feelings about all the negativity about your musical instrument and all the musical instruments damned by the title, ARRANGER KEYBOARD. Surely you must be tired by now, given the weight of that enormous chip on your shoulder. What on earth does "HERE YE, HERE YE, TECHNOLOGY IS COMING AND YOU'D BETTER JUST ACCEPT IT", have to do with ability, talent, and training. Trust me, man, you're taking this stuff waaaaay to seriously. Nobody else does, at least not for more than a day or two. You said a few days ago that you didn't feel accepted. Try posting something other than protests about some imagined wrong to your computer with a keybed attached. Oops, I think I went too far. Since you're a newbie, here are some time-honored tips; don't take anything said on an international, world-wide, multi-cultural, multi-national, forum too seriously. 90% of it is usually good stuff, just ignore the other 10% if it annoys you. Here's another: Always end questionable or potentially controversial statements with a smiley face. Like this .

chas

I agree with you Dennis...the Yamaha forums offer the same stuff...tips, tricks and generally a lot of help.

Why do think SZ is the way it is?

Ian

'Cause it's populated by 'arranger-players' with feelings of inadequacy playing 'home' keyboards. Many in this population think that 'technology' is needed to free us from the discipline and training needed to master one-finger chords. I couldn't agree more.

chas

PS: for those unfamiliar with the expression, tongue-in-cheek........

But seriously, Ian, which of the other forums has the activity, volatility, loyalty, and plain ol' entertainment value, of SZ. Which one do you personally spend more time at? See what I mean?

Well Chas, this place is like a great big dysfunctional family...how can we not feel at home?

It's the first place I log in and the last one I visit.

AND...I've actually learned a few things about those "computers with a keybed attached".

Fun? Entertainment? Somewhere between getting a new train set and watching someone with clown shoes and a spinning bow-tie.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-20-2008).]

Chas maybe your right. Whats the use?
If you cant beat em, Join em! Maybe I take things too serious, I always have been this way in my life. Its just that I feel very seriously about playing music & I'm trying to be a better player & learn as much as I can from players better then me so that maybe one day soon I can try playing for others maybe at Nursing Homes & small parties in my community...you have to start somewhere right? My biggest accomplishment was to ween myself of One Finger chords & play in fingered mode. That took almost 2 years....now I'm more confident & my songs sound more interesting.
I even took Dnj's advice to play blind-folded as much as possible so I would learn to play effortlessly, not look at my hands as much & concentrate more on Audience Eye Contact....it really helps. I'm getting better every day.

One two cha cha cha

I don't see any reason that John DiLeo needs to apologize for his recent messages. Out of all the near-hokum on this board for the last few days, he and a few others are the only ones that sounded cognizant and "in touch" with reality.

Chas and Dickie....most times I agree and welcome your postings but this time I think you did John a disservice, he being a newer member. All he did was try and express his love of music and “playing” music. He doesn't seem to be caught up in this arranger wars situation.


What did he say here that was so offensive (or as some said "defensive")?

".....all this negativity toward Arrangers doesnt help anyone. Its really not needed. I wish the energy was put to help people who use arrangers so they may become more productive in their ability.
We should be helping each other NOT bashing or demeaning the very thing we love mainly Arranger KB's. I want to get to be a better player & learn from people better then me who have traveled the same road. Is that asking too much?"

"But it just seems we're always defending our playing & our purchases & what's right & wrong. When I would rather just discuss playing techniques, tips & tricks, etc wouldn't you?.. & also how we can help each other play better no matter what level people think they're at or what type music they enjoy performing."

I wish more of the members in SZ would talk like this. Instead John was labeled as "defensive" when in reality most everyone else caught up in this discussion was in "defense" mode. I would like to have seen all the energy dispensed in this thread used to trade musical ideas or just "practicing" their instruments. Are any of us any smarter now than when this topic first appeared? No...nothing accomplished but ruffled feathers. The smarter members used it as pure entertainment.

In one of his postings, John talks about how we'll be producing music in the future. I thought that was very poignant. Maybe it wasn't relevant to that particular topic, but wasn't he putting us in touch with something very real that would be more productive to discuss in another thread?

Now I'm not John's personal trainer and I don't know him at all, but he certainly speaks for me and a few (very few) others on these boards. Whether he's a rank beginner or a seasoned pro impersonating a novice player, the important thing is he's in love with the music and NOT the music machine. I put into question form what he has already stated. WHY is no one on these boards discussing making music? I don't expect anything to change, but I'm really curious about the reason for each of you, WHY you're not trading musical ideas instead of bickering over equipment?

(not sure how to end this with a "smilie!")

I believe Ketron never designed instruments for home use. The first product I knew of was the
mid-70's Auto Orchestra.

R.

Every "Profession" has it's entry point

For doctors its a Degree and a test score
For lawyers its a bar exam (with or without a degree)

For Cosmologists its a state board
For musicians..it's a paycheck.

IF you ger paid and make a living for what you do you are a professional. The argument here seems to be who is the BETTER professional?

SOmeone who can read every note or someone who is blind. Someone who can play the classics or someone who can play Rock......

WE are talking ART here where subjectivity rules. No one ever asked me for a degree when hiring me. No one ever checked my credentials. My credentials were obvious as soon as I sat down. Either i could cut what they wanted or not. Does not matter if I have a Doctorate in Music. IF I cannot play what they want NOW Im not getting the gig.

You cannot equate the definition of "professional" on the same scale with other non subjective trades no matter how much those who spent years with a teacher and rote excersizes were accomplished.

Yeah it can be diheartening for some to see someone with no training get work on a plastic keyboard with few knobs. But thats life..

My wife has had professional training and can sight read. She has played in shows where she had to read and does singles. Her keyboard is a Roland RD-700 and a 61 key Casio. LOL She has never been out of work in 30 years.

It does not matter what one plays oon. It only matters whether the listener is pleased.

THIS is where the thread went south. Go re-read it. There wasn't ANY arranger-bashing, or mention of it up to that point. Unless you consider being informed that there ARE some musical things you CAN'T do on an arranger 'bashing'. You don't really feel THAT defensive, do you?

There are things you can do on an arranger that a WS can't do... Are YOU 'bashing' workstations? Or are you just pointing out differences in workflow and techniques?

If you are not 'bashing' them, why do you assume that everyone is 'bashing' you? Talk about a thin skin!

Or is this just spilling over from other threads, where the only documented 'arranger bashing' is the tirade by Simon Cowell of all people. As if anyone cares, for a starter. He's the one who thinks Clay Aiken was 'talented', for Pete's sake! But take that awful 'Star Wars' clip into consideration, and you can see he has a point...!

OF COURSE, you aren't who he is talking about, are you? But have you watched the clip? Remind you of anyone you ever heard? Sure it did... Let's face it folks. An arranger, in fact the exact same arranger, can simultaneously be either a 'pro' instrument, a 'home' keyboard, or a 'toy' for a non-musician to muck around with. It all depends on who is sitting at the bench.

And just because this forum is populated by primarily the first two, that doesn't mean a LOT of the third type don't exist. And THOSE are the kind of players that Simon (so far, the only person that anyone has actually QUOTED 'bashing' arrangers) is railing about, and to be honest (let's try a little of that rather than knee-jerk outrage ), haven't YOU felt the same way on occasion, when you hear someone truly awful play the arranger?

Or is it ALL music to your ears, no critical faculties whatsoever, if it is simply being played on your personal favorite instrument? Me, I don't care what it is played on. If it bad, I don't care if it's a piano, a WS or an arranger. It's JUST PLAIN BAD.

The trouble is, it's easier to be bad on an arranger, and still have the semblance of music, at least enough to fool yourself. But the impressions of Simon, and apparently all these legions of arranger 'bashers' that mysteriously, I have never heard from (that DonM wishes would go away - hard to make something go away you can't hardly find!), sure didn't come from NOWHERE...

Where do YOU think they got this impression? Come on, I want to hear this one... What makes them think this way in the first place?

Or are they ALL secret WS players, who are mad at all the WS 'bashing' they hear over here?!

Look, I'm not looking down on, making fun of, being mean to, or doing a disservice to, John and I apologize if I came across that way. However, when someone, by their own admission, is "just starting to transition from one-finger chords" and then in the next breath is asking about the appropriateness of wearing a tuxedo to the gig (yes, GIG) in order to appear more "professional", it's bound to uh, raise some questions. Also, on most any board such as this, with old, opinionated, battle-hardened, veterans, any 'newbie' that comes in on day one and proceeds to give us all a morality lecture, is likely to come under some fire. It would not be unheard of for someone to suggest that they "get a feel for the board first". One aspect of that is to realize that there are all levels of players here with varying temperaments, playing a wide variety of instruments. What is common among us is that we all own and play arranger keyboards. This equates to a vast amount of knowledge with a huge potential for learning and gathering information and opinion.......but probably not if you walk in the door on day one and proceed to lecture this wonderfully dysfunctional family on how it should act. I can just about guarantee that someone will rise up and find a nice way to tell you to 'go smack it'.

By and large, this group is as accepting as most special interest groups, and most are willing and eager to help neophytes get up to speed. The secret, I think, is that if you're a neophyte, stay out of the little 'side wars' and by all means, don't precipitate one (unless you've REALLY got the stomach for it ). Some will disagree with me on this, but that's ok; I'm confident that truth will prevail .

chas

Chas I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway. Thank you for the info on SZ tolerance & tips, I appreciate it. As for me I guess I just read about all the great veteran players here doing so well, Zuki 56 NH in a month, Beakybird 500 jobs a year, etc. WOW! & quite frankly I'm a little jealous & envious of them all. Maybe I'm trying to move too quickly absorbing most of what is needed to perform for the public, but with some determination, & all the help received from the SZ I am sure I will in time be able to fulfill my dream in the near future.

No need to apologize to me, John. I'm not offended. No need for humility, either. you won't find THAT in large supply either. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh but there are really no 'arranger wars' here, and no real arranger-bashing either. If a post gives your knee and involuntary jerk, then I suggest that you re-read it and make sure that what got a rise out of you is actually what was said. Sometimes 'buzz words' will jump out in a phrase and make us respond to something that isn't there. Happens to everyone, me included. Saying that learning a traditional keyboard instrument might give one a better foundation in music than an arranger keyboard, does not constitute arranger-bashing. It's just an opinion; not even shared by all. There has to be room for these kinds of non-confrontational opinions. You should always feel free to disagree which can easily be done without making it a moral issue. Welcome to SynthZone. There is a lot of information here from a lot of sources. You always want to position yourself so that people WANT to help you. Good luck in your future endeavors. You'll probably do very well. You seem to have the drive and the passion.

chas

Just try to remember, John, that the number of gigs you do a year is not the indicator of how good or bad a musician you are. It's the indicator of how successful a self-promoter you are, how well you tailor your presentation and repertoire to your audiences, and how good a businessman you are (and how hard you want to work at it!)...

There are studio musicians here, songwriters, composers of film music, even some who play primarily 'live'... Just because they aren't playing 500 NH gigs a year makes them no less 'good musicians'. There's a LOT more to being a good musician than just the QUANTITY of jobs you can do (this is NOT me saying those with a lot of gigs are bad musicians, just that those WITHOUT that hectic schedule may be just as good! ).

Try to take advice and help from whatever source it comes from, and don't get defensive when it might involve learning non-arranger (or PART-arranger) techniques. Every bit helps. I learn PLENTY from hanging around here, and I certainly don't get worked up about the source!

But chas is right... Especially as you are in that 'newbie' stage, lecturing us on what constitutes 'accepted' use for an arranger, or how we should use our long-learned techniques comes off as a bit brash...

Diki,

That's a big 10 - 4 !!
Appreciate the advice. I hope to grow as I go along, experience wise & equipment wise.
The SZ is a great source for learning.

Being a good musician and a professional musician are mutually exclusive terms in many examples.

Anyone here can like play circles areound Paul Mc Cartney or Ray Charles on the keyboards and not be considered great musicians. (Probably because tey have not achieved the professional LEVEL of the latter which somehow crowns them witnh great musician status...)

On the other hand someone who plays like Nicholas Angelic and has not achieved the professional level ma be considered a lesser musician.

Arrangers shine for songwriters who do not want to play the parts in the arrangement of heir music because those who can and do are better suited to it. Those of us who had workstations or years had to play all the parts and arrange all the orchestrations which although was fun was time consuming and less than it could be.

A workstation is a hand held hammer. An Arranger is a powered hammer. They both serve to build a house equally as strong. However the carpenter with the single hammer will take longer to build the same house.

Who's lecturing now?

John DiLeo,

Ref: your apology

The first thing you learn, even before your first scale run, is......

NEVER LET 'EM SEE YOU SWEAT!

As they say in the "hood"...it's all about respect! You were doing well up to the apology.

Lucky

One thing you'll find ANY real artist willing to say, whether they are 'technically' proficient or not, is that they are ALWAYS willing to grow, to learn new stuff, to not go around and say that 'this is all I need to know'...

Which, from the post of a FEW here, is EXACTLY what they are saying. 'Why should I learn any traditional techniques, if my arranger already does it for me?'

That, folks, is the path to stagnation. Sure, buy a new arranger, get a few new styles, and you can SOUND like you've learned something, but that's the arranger, not you. What YOU are doing hasn't changed an iota. That may, indeed, be good enough for you. But trust me, NONE of the artists whose songs you are playing ever felt this way, and most of the PLAYERS here feel the same way.

If your goal is to put on a show with the minimum amount of effort and the least amount of shedding, well, there's always karaoke... And if your goal is to learn as little as possible to achieve the same result on an arranger, you can't exactly blame us poor musicians for pointing that out, now can you?

RH, LH, it makes little difference. The minute you stop and say 'I don't need to learn any more', you stagnate, even if your arranger moves on.

If your goal is this mythic 'the arranger does it all so I don't have to learn to play, and I can concentrate on entertaining my audience', well, that's certainly legitimate, and you certainly can have a perfectly good career . But getting indignant when it gets the inevitable response from a forum full of musicians (and only a few 'entertainers' with minimal keyboard skills) who realize that you are NOT 'cheating', only 'cheating yourself', kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?

You've already decided you don't care (by deciding NOT to try and learn to play), so why get indignant? There's PLENTY here who'll CLAIM they want to learn and grow, but oddly, will get defensive when perfectly reasonable advice is offered. Strange...

Anyhow... Anyone who has read this post and thinks that my saying 'You' is in any way directed at them personally has got it wrong. I am using the plural 'You' and it's meant as a general comment. It's hard for me to say "we' when I am definitely NOT in the 'I don't need to learn' camp! For as long as I have been playing, I have ALWAYS considered that, even if I CAN get technology to do it for me, I STILL need to learn how to do it for myself...

It's how you grow, it's how you don't get stale, it's how you prepare for whatever technology and the changing musical tastes of the public forces you to do NEXT... Let's face it, if there ever WERE a backlash from the public about listening to machines rather than humans, those of you that invest the time in learning traditional keyboard technique will still be working, and those that rely 100% on the arranger to do it for them will have problems. I'm not saying that's likely, but who knows where technology and the public is heading? Those that use their arranger to better their general skills will have options, and those that use them so the DON'T have to learn will have fewer...

Each of us needs to make that decision for ourselves. But, if you walk into a room full of doctors, and proudly announce that you are ready to operate on any of their kids, simply because you have a laptop and WebMD, well, you are likely to get the same response as you might round here announcing you 'don't need to learn' how to play well...

We are never more discontented with others than when we are discontented with ourselves-Henri Frederic Amiel

That's it in a nutshell, Ian.

And good quote... I had to Google him!

I often feel some wander around here like an Edgar Allan Poe character, always falsely hearing OTHERS say what they are secretly saying to themselves...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-22-2008).]